Is Lying Bad?

Posted: March 8, 2012 in Unmaskd Tales

One glorious morning, glorious Emperor Moktut sat in his favorite Ruby Room and listened to the daily briefing of his Royal Advisor. Everything was fine and splendid in the Empire, while its neighbors struggled with chaos and poverty.
“I’m delighted to know that my people are so happy,” said the Emperor when the Royal Advisor finished. “You wouldn’t lie to me, would you?”
The Royal Advisor paled.
“Oh no, Your Majesty,” he whispered, his eyes wide with horror. “I would never lie to you!”
“Of course, you wouldn’t,” agreed Moktut. “Otherwise very soon you’d bid farewell to your head.”
The Royal Advisor smiled, his lips trembling.
“But I wonder,” continued the Emperor. “Would you be still as truthful, had you not feared the punishment? People lie so often, even though lies are so disgusting.”
“And I also wonder,” he continued, looking at the shaking Advisor, “What is it that makes lies so disgusting to me? I’m the most powerful man in the world — and yet I don’t want to lie even to someone like you.”
The Emperor spent whole day in deep thought.
Next morning he gathered his advisers and said, “I have decided that I want to know why I find lies so repulsive. I don’t expect any of you to answer this, so bring me the wisest men you can find in my country. A month from now I wish to hear their answers.”
A month later the Emperor sat in his favorite Amber Garden, looking at the gathering of people who were came to his palace from all over his wast empire.
“You are the wisest men in my Empire,” he said to them. “Or so my advisers are telling me. This is your chance to use your wisdom for a great cause. I want to you to explain to me why I find lies disgusting. So disgusting, that I don’t want to utter a word of lie, even though no one would ever doubt my words. I will reward the one, whose answer I like the best. Who wants to be first?”
Silence followed his words. The wise men were looking at each other. Finally, an old man with a long silver beard stepped forward.
“Many call me the wisest man in your Empire, Your Majesty” he said, bowing. “And dare I say they have many reasons for that. Of course, my wisdom is but a shadow of the wisdom you bring to our world, but one does not compare a mere human to–”
“If you say another word about yourself or my wisdom, it will be your last,” said Moktut. “I don’t have time to waste on this nonsense — this what my court is for. Answer the question.”
“As you wish, Your Majesty,” said the wise man, his hands shaking slightly. “You detest lies because they are not noble. The highest purpose of a human spirit is to tell the truth and a royal mind like yours does not wish to tolerate…”
Ten minutes later Moktut stopped him.
“Enough,” he said. “I would need another life to listen to everything you want to say. Lies are not noble, I get it. Next!”
“Our religion teaches us to be truthful to one another,” said the next man. His beard wasn’t as long, but it was wide and bushy. “When in doubt, we must listen to what we are taught, and not question the divine teaching. We must…”
Ten minutes later Moktut stopped him.
“Next,” he said, frowning.
“The lie is the vilest thing on earth,” began the third man, “and being the purest spirit in the world, The Emperor has all reasons to despise it…”
A great many number of wise men spoke in front of the Emperor on that day. They talked about virtues and values, sins and redemption, moral duty and spiritual growth. They cited sacred texts, dead poets and themselves. They condemned lies, praised the truth, and spoke of the Emperor’s glory. They spoke till late night.
Moktut sat still, his face calm.
“I’m lucky,” he said when the last man finished speaking. “Your wisdom is enlightening and I feel so humbled by it. You all are the most precious treasure my country has.”
“But,” he said as wise men started smiling, “you’ve just taught me that I should not be lying to anyone. So let me say this. YOU ALL ARE USELESS MORONS!! You spent all day telling me why others thought lying was bad, but I asked why I find it disgusting. None of answered my question! You’ve wasted my time! You–”
Suddenly Moktut stopped. He noticed a calm face among dozens of terrified faces in front of him.
“You,” he said. “Who are you? I don’t remember you speaking today.”
“My name is Puram Bam,” said the man. “I didn’t come here to speak.”
“Why did you come then?” asked puzzled Moktut.
“Your guards brought me here.”
The Head of Emperor’s Guards stepped forward.
“Your wish was to see every wise man, Your Majesty,” he said, his voice hoarse. “People say that this man is a famous sage, but he didn’t come on his own. So we brought him here.”
“Interesting,” said Moktut. “Did he resist?”
“No, he said something about not struggling against a current and came with us. But he hasn’t spoken today, so he is probably not that wise.”
The Emperor looked at the man.
“So do you want to answer my question, sage?” he said, looking into a face that was as calm as his own.
“You won’t like my answer,” replied the man.
“After today I’ll like anything,” said Moktut. “Go ahead. Answer it.”
“You despise lying because you are afraid of death,” said the man.
The court gasped. The Head of Emperor’s Guards lurched forward. But Moktut smiled.
“Explain,” he said, stopping The Head of Emperor’s Guards with a gesture. “This doesn’t make any sense, but at least it’s original.”
The man stepped forward. Moktut looked into his eyes and for the first time in his life felt that he was looking into the eyes of an equal.
“Lies are neither bad nor good,” said the man, his voice sound and clear.“But they are final and nothing terrifies us more than finality. You are your mind, and your every honest thought is a part of you. It bears the seal of your soul and when you share it, you’re giving that part of yourself a new life. It will live on in the minds of others and may even outlive you, since some thoughts live long after the mind that gave them life is gone. But when you lie you’re sentencing that of part of you to life in prison. In the prison of your mind. Every lie comes with a hope that the truth will be never discovered. And this is what terrifies you. Because you know that you’re sentencing some part of yourself to death. Now it will spend the rest of its life in solitude and die with you. Lie is not the opposite of truth — it is simply the truth’s death sentence. People don’t like signing death sentences for parts of themselves. That’s why they find ways to confess to each other. That’s why they feel what you feel.”
After a long silence Moktut asked the man, “You’ve answered my question, sage. How can I reward you?”
“You can’t,” said Puram Bam. “Kings can only punish. The only person who can truly reward a man is himself.”

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Comments
  1. Wow ….powerful stuff

    #inspired

    For some reason this reminds me of that phrase ‘ Each man kills the thing he loves…’ Havn’t gotta clue Y.

  2. Ashley says:

    It isn’t really the hatred or contempt of dishonesty as much as it is the value and appreciation of integrity. :)

  3. Dawn says:

    Ah, lying destroys the soul. So true. We can live with a decaying, rotting soul but what kind of life is that really. No one to trust you, you trusting no one, life lived in a dark, angry place. Not for me thank you.

  4. Truth …. sometimes the Truth can be as dark & difficult as a lie or a deep undisclosed secret …But @ least its the TRUTH

    Question ? I personally love that line ‘ you’re dangerous ‘cos you’re honest’ …

    BUT ….

    Is it EVER more congruent to tell a lie than the (brutal?) truth?

    • Lisa says:

      I’m glad you addressed this very important topic, Unmaskd. I believe you have spoken to it in different ways before. Nicely done. I’m a fan of Radical Honesty. http://radicalhonesty.com/ It’s a bitch, sometimes, but you just might enjoy it.

      “The truth will set you (and ultimately all of us) free”.

      Thanks for this.

      • Unmaskd says:

        I personally would not enjoy it, as I would not enjoy anything truly radical. Radical typically means valuing an idea more than a man and I’m not a fan of that, no matter how noble the idea may sound. Plus, I think 100% truth telling regardless of circumstances is impractical, potentially cruel and at the end may do more harm than good.

    • Sunshine says:

      Thanks for sharing this Sarah…it’s new music to me. The visual goes perfectly with the lyrics!

  5. Anonymous says:

    Wonder what Puram Bam would make of this http://www.ichingonline.net/index.php#

    I was so bold as to ask his question…. this was the reply

    ‘A Promethean flame delivering light and heat to the situation at hand

    This radiance will cause such an alchemical transformation of circumstances that the changes will seem magical and miraculous

    Yet they are only shifts of perspective and attitude that bring clarity

    The passions kindled by this fire must be used judiciously or they threaten to consume your hopes and dreams’

    Wow…seems like the I ching really understands passion, procrastination, truth, lies and possibly also videotape (badjoke)

  6. Genuinely clever you are. Release the fear of death to find the moment and freedom from our perceived cages. Who are we to claim the truth anyway? Write on, write on dear friend.

  7. Sunshine says:

    The first time reading this, I couldn’t help but think of the name Moktut like King Tut, you know, Tutankhamun (abstractly revealing “two in common”). When googling how to spell Tutankhamun yesterday as I was preparing to respond to this post, I discovered that King Tut wore a death mask which I found interesting in relation to this tale in that again showed perhaps a little foreshadowing to the answer. This tale seems to have a sort of religious undertone to it in seeking truth also. I noticed the symbolism with the Ruby Room and the Amber Garden, which let me say once again, I enjoy your writing very much as it is always shows depth, causing a person to not just skim over it, but to read it several times and think about what the piece is saying. Emperor Moktut found an equal of mind in Puram Bam making quite the dynamic duo.

    If I dissect the words toward the end, I see this:
    Lies = Not good, nor bad
    Lies = finality
    You = your mind = honest (truth) = seal soul = new life = lives on
    Lie = life in prison of mind
    Lie = hope of truth not to be revealed = terrifies = death sentence of part of you = solitude till death
    Lie = truth’s death sentence
    People = confess to each other to null feeling of death sentence

    I disagree that Kings can only punish and that the only person who can truly reward a man is himself because no lie is so great that it is unforgiveable–people just might feel too exposed to want to be faced, there is shame in a lie, but that is how the heavy burden is lifted when you face it and you discover it’s more liveable that once thought. I don’t think without lies would we wholly understand truth. Perhaps pride is what people allow to get in the way of themselves in human nature. We all abhor lies yet no one can possibly be completely honest no matter how hard one tries, no matter how much one abhors them…little white lies sneak in whether it is resisting a thought or editing a response before saying it, yes, even for Moktut and Bam. In the religious undertones, I think of the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve hid from God because truth was revealed and they were frightened–and that is what we want to do with lies–hide them. From the beginning there have been evil opposing forces, but that is what lets the good shine even more vibrantly. I think the true death sentence is allowing yourself to die inside prison walls instead of being set free from the lies and into the light of truth to be able to face even the darkest parts of ourselves. It is in daring to care to reveal the lies that don’t sparkle that illuminate the way to freedom from fear of death.

    I really like the saying, “Our faults are more pardonable than the methods we think up to hide them” (or something like that).

  8. Sunshine says:

    As I think about your tumblr post referencing this tale, I go back to your tumblr post of Jan. 7, 2011 with the word TRUTH filled with lies coming to mind. We all opposed that statement defending that truth is not made up of lies. You then posted a 2nd part on the 8th stating that the truth is uglier than lies and that is why the truth is so hard to face. Today,that graphic of TRUTH filled with lies and a magnifying glass means something different to me–it means that truth reveals lies but lies could not exist without truth.

    After your small screen post, I think of a death “sentence” in a literary work. Constructed of words that do not allow truth to live strong on it’s own within a body of text. We think strong sentences are positive, breathing life with realizations of truth. Therefore, a death sentence would take away from the body of text as a force of deep emotional response. In order to have a series of strong sentences built one upon another, it needs equally strong sentences with hints of weakness or type of negativity built in to make the strength stand out. It’s like a home built strong in it’s structure but with windows made of delicate glass to see through letting light in while being supported by the framework to hold it together so the delicate glass does not break. In “The Fountainhead” sentences are constructed with such force and resistance making strength of meaning stand out. (I know I have a wierd way of expressing my thoughts–maybe I’m the only one who understands what I mean but I’m putting it out there anyway).
    —–
    On a side note, I notice in the Puram Bam tales the word glory and glorious standing out which leaves me wondering about the significance. I have more thinking to do about all these tales as they unfold to reveal more clarity. I want to know the significance of the “cold fire” if there is a correlation to Dean Koontz’ novel in which the main character, Jim has magical power set by God and if the stone face refers to the stone face of Mars since it also references the color red. Eventually I will grasp all of it to put the pieces together in this layered series of content you’ve created that I’m immensely enjoying.

  9. Sunshine says:

    “Many call me the wisest man in your Empire, Your Majesty” he said, bowing. “And dare I say they have many reasons for that. Of course, my wisdom is but a shadow of the wisdom you bring to our world, but one does not compare a mere human to–”

    This almost indicates Moktut is a spiritual figure. When Puram Bam comes into the tale he seems to be like a redemptive figure which would also show the equalness yet separateness from Moktut but telling a God-like figure they’re afraid of death doesn’t make sense so maybe that is not a correct analogy but your tales have a sort of spirituality to them.

    Lack of security in an eternal destiny would be cause of fear of death.

  10. Anonymous says:

    Just finished Cameron’s diatribe starting on page 63:

    “Look Roark, there’s one thing about you, the thing I’m afraid of. It’s not just the kind of work you do; I wouldn’t care, if you were an exhibitionist who’s being different as a stunt, as a lark, just to attract attention to himself. It’s a smart racket, to oppose the crowd and amuse it and collect admission to the side show. If you did that, I wouldn’t worry. But it’s not that, You love your work. God help you, you love it! And that’s the curse…”

    slow reader indeed.

  11. dancergypsy says:

    I like your story. After briefly reading it and the above comments, I would like to humbly leave my own. I am new here. I do not assume you are interested in my opinion on honesty, but I will offer it below for the sake of “leave a reply” and because I want to. I would be curious to know if you disagree, and if so, why. :)

    Honesty is something I greatly value, yet I do not always quantify honesty as truth, necessarily. The nature of truth remains to be agreed upon on so many different levels. My answer to: what is true? could stand remarkably different from what you believe to be true.

    I agree with you, and do not enjoy radical ideas on honesty, so much. They often lead people to follow a principle without reason or wisdom.

    My personal code of honesty is to provide information that I believe to be true- if I feel it serves a purpose. Certain information I do not deem of importance to share with others to prove my worth as an honest lady. In times when a lie, or something less than the truth seems fitting I simply dismiss it with no response, or say, “I cannot say.” This is not withholding information with ill intention. More so, I do not concern myself greatly on how my honesty is perceived to the extent of worry; it forbidding me to be real. This would only mean I value someone’s opinion of me more than I value myself. Every note of my truth is my business, and frankly if someone wants to know my truth I may just as well say, “It’s none of your business.” I would be honest. People must earn my trust. However, this is not to be misunderstood as complete disregard for the feelings of others. Rather, it is beneficial to use wisdom coupled with honesty. In the end, “I am responsible for what I say, but I am not responsible for what you understand.”(quote, D. M. Ruiz)

    • Unmaskd says:

      The way I read your question, is whether I believe that telling the truth implies always disclosing everything that’s on your mind. If that is your question, my answer is “no”. Whet, when and to whom I disclose is my choice and I have no obligation to anyone other than myself in this.

      As for this part: “The nature of truth remains to be agreed upon on so many different levels.” I don’t see it this way. At end of the day truth comes down to a very binary choice, to black and white. The reason it’s so often replaced by something in-between is that either one or both of the people who argue about wants to avoid — whether consciously or not — facing that binary choice.

  12. dancergypsy says:

    Thank you for responding. I was simply curious of your opinion- and you shared!

    You do not see that, “The nature of truth remains to be agreed upon on so many different levels.”

    I see you believe truth to be a choice. Is this correct? Truth= black and white.

    I would state, truth is true whether you believe it or not, in that it is what it is, but knowing what it is can be uncertain. Here I will provide a simple examples to clarify what I mean:

    Yesterday my mother and her cousin met for a visit after not having seen one another for more than a year. During their visit they began to reminisce over their childhood. Her cousin shared stories she recalled, which my mother reported to lack accuracy. She said to me, “In her stories, she had me doing things I never did. Her stories were hardly true.”

    In the above example, one could either agree with my mother, or her cousin. Which is true? Which is honest?

    This is why I stated before, “The nature of truth remains to be agreed upon on so many different levels.”

    Lying, is perhaps not a matter of truth. Lying is sometimes a matter of insecurity, or an intentional construction of ideas meant to lead others to false conclusions. I would not say my mother was lying, nor her cousin. Both of them had very different views on what was true, in relation to their shared childhood moments.

    On a different note: The truth of whether or not God exists, is a choice. This truth would be black or white. He either does exist or does not, and it has nothing to do with honesty. However, if I went to the store and told you I did not- this has everything to do with honesty.

    This is why I stated before, “I do not always quantify honesty as truth, necessarily.”

    All of this to say, I think there is a flaw in equating a person’s honesty to what is truth, in some cases.

    • Unmaskd says:

      >> I see you believe truth to be a choice. Is this correct?
      Let me rephrase it. Truth is a fact. Accepting it or not is a binary choice. Everything else is an opinion.

      >> In the above example, one could either agree with my mother, or her cousin. Which is true?
      In this case, the truth may never come out. Both people might have forgotten what really happened, or there could be a deliberate misleading involved. If two people look at green and one says “red”, while another says “blue” no one is stating the truth.

      • Sunshine says:

        “Truth is a fact. Accepting it or not is a binary choice. Everything else is an opinion.” I think this statement is worthy of being posted as an Unmaskd quote.

  13. dancergypsy says:

    It seems to me, that you and I agree, but how we communicated our opinions were different. I agree truth is fact, and a choice.

    For myself, I used to be concerned about the honesty of others but then I learned their honesty is sometimes merely their opinion, not always the truth. As you said about the colors- I often thought the same thing as a child. My mother told me it was colorblindness, but she didn’t understand that was not what I was thinking about. haha! :)

    My deepest question that may never be truly answered is: how can you truly know if someone is an honest person? I have not known so many people to be what I believe to be honest. This leads me to not believe very many people at all. In fact, I cannot say I truly believe anyone. It’s not so much that I care if they lie, but someday I would like to trust someone, and I wonder how I will know I can. You see, I believe I deserve a truly honest person to trust in, yet I find the world severely lacking in people of this kind. I do not wish to wear a mask, and if I wish my soul not to wear one, I want to have a friend that is brave enough to not wear one too.

    Anyways, thank you for your time.

    • Ashley says:

      Hello! First off, welcome! :) Just throwing my 2 cents in, for what it’s worth.
      While I do agree that honest people are hard to find, I suppose I don’t see it as such a rarity as some here. I’ve known many honest people, and I’ve also known very dishonest people. I think, although the experiences themself were difficult (to say the least), it gave me experience to be able to better use discernment.
      However, I just do not believe that truly honest people are a dying species. Maybe it has a bit of something to do with geography? I know that may sound silly, but certain areas are just so morally based–it’s how you’re raised. You’re raised to be honest, and have respect etc. Because lying to someone is a lack of respect, and possibly one of the things I can’t stand the most. It’s insulting to your intelligence, even though you may know that person is being dishonest.
      Anyways, what I meant to get at is this: you had asked something about trust. You said how will you ever be able to trust someone. Well, I personally think this is starting to form into a trust issue than a lack of honest people issue. We all have some reservations on who to trust–and justifiably so. But, it’s my opinion that you will not be able to know who to trust if you never try. You don’t learn how to ride a bike by sitting back and looking at it, even though the risk that you may fall off and hurt yourself are there. You know? I know firsthand it hurts to fall off. It hurts to have that trust broken. To be totally honest, at least it is this way for me, it also hurts to have to realize that you were wrong in trusting that person. But, then again, that’s how you learn. I still haven’t stopped getting back on that bike.
      I think that post Unmaskd made the other day about being naive fits here. There’s a big beautiful world out there. Yes, it can be made ugly, and is at times. But it’s still a beautiful place, and there are caring, beautiful people left. When you find one, you will know, and don’t let them go. I have a friend like this I’ve had for 15 years, and do not see an end to that. It’s never going to be perfect. Not everyone is going to be a totally open book and spill every single thought. Yet, there are good, honest people who are trying their absolute best. If they want to be there for you (any hour), and have been there through some dark times and stuck around–chances are they’re just what you are looking for and you should not fear. What else can you ask of another human?
      Best wishes for a wonderful day to you (and the kitty!) :)

  14. dancergypsy says:

    Hi Ashley! Thank you kindly, for offering your two cents worth. :) I appreciate it. I understand your points. I can say that through my life I have done likewise, in regards to trusting people. This is turning into somewhat of a different topic- I didn’t mean to guide it in this direction. Oops. Even so, maybe I need to better find the words for what I mean. It could be best stated that I have not known many who were honest with themselves.

    I realize that what I may write could be interpreted as very judgmental and condescending of people, which is not my intention.

    I work very diligently to learn about how I should live my life best, and do not say people should live like me. In truth, when it comes down to me being disgusted with lies, it is because I am not blind to so many lies constantly around us, everywhere. People own lies they are unaware of. For my own good, I listen very carefully to people, watch how they live, and I observe. By doing this, I quickly realize so much that I would rather not have in my life. I do not have time for lies or things I do not value. I have less time for people who are not honest with themselves. It is not my business to change people either. It is a choice I have made. I’d rather be alone and trust few, than lose my focus and deceive myself.

    I guess you could say, I am open to the possibility of trusting people, giving them the benefit of the doubt, but my life doesn’t depend on the honesty of others. I actually study humans, because I see them as a fascinating part of this big beautiful world. For me to devote such time to studying the human race, I love them to a degree. Sadly, I have not known a friend to be there for me (any hour) aside from my mother and cat. I do not need that from someone. I dream of something more, that I seem to have trouble putting into simple words. :)

    Thanks again, and you too, have a wonderful day.

    • Lisa says:

      Gypseydancer
      While you are at it are you studying yourself? I get that you enjoy studying humans and find them quite fascinating in certain ways. i hear the love in your heart, but dm’t forget you are one too.
      Discerning if someone is being honest with themselves often seems pretty evident to me, but I always keep in mind that I am human and could be wrong. Never the less, I choose to: go with my gut instincts, act accordingly and let the chips fall where they may as a result of these actions..

      Not to change the subject too much, but to me a loving relationship is learning how to become more intimate with ourselves in the presence of another and learn that who we are in our entirety isn’t bad or unlovable. I know this may be a bit off topic but a lot of relationships start out quite intimate , but the intimacy fails to grow and flourish. This is sad.

  15. dancergypsy says:

    Hi Lisa,

    I do not believe you get what I enjoy at all. Is it possible to forget one is a human? I have never experienced this. To answer your question, I thought I would kindly share one of my favorite quotes:

    “You do not need to be loved, not at the cost of yourself. The single relationship that is truly central and crucial in a life is the relationship to the self. Of all the people you will know in a lifetime, you are the only one you will never lose.” -Jo Coudert

    I choose to try and follow reason over my feelings, but I do listen to my feelings. I do not want feelings to rule me; I want to rule them.

  16. Lisa says:

    Nice quote.

  17. Sunshine says:

    Welcome dancergypsy. This is a very comfortable place to open up and be yourself. I have found that one can only be as honest as an individual is honest with self and that is what will be revealed in one’s life to others. People are always perceiving information differently and so honesty falls into that category. Who needs the judgement of others and why care what they perceive of us? Why can’t people just be who they are, honestly expressing themselves without being judged. Because as people, we have a longing to connect, so we look for the place that we feel comfortable to be ourselves even if we are perfectly content by ourselves for the sake of being true to ourselves. I know the awkwardness of being different but I am perfectly content because I have found the comfortability of being myself even if other’s don’t understand, I understand and that’s all that matters. You may not realize it, but others watch and admire those that are true to themselves and wish they had the courage to do the same but they care too much about what other people think.You dancergypsy, like many others that post here are the innovators and impact makers. The more different we are, the more difficult it is to find where we fit, but when we do find that individual or group, we can breathe a sigh of relief in knowing there is a place for us to connect and just freely, unapologetically be who we are further embracing our uniqueness of thought and expression. Afterall, basically who we are is what we think and how we think. In relationships with others, you can’t avoid disappointment or hurt because of honesty and/or truth no matter which way it is expressed or not expressed. Life is not a fairytale, but I do believe that one can get as close to what one seeks by not settling for less than what one perceives to be what is honest and true for them. When you understand the harshness of people and not counting on them for your fulfillment in life, going against that harshness by expressing your truth without letting it bring you down is where you find your freedom of self. Common ground in thought is your best bet in finding honesty but it must continue to be given attention–effective communication is the most important part of honesty thriving.

  18. Lisa says:

    Gypsydancer
    I’m really piss…er, I mean, upset with you. Seriously. The world is not about you and “them”. It’s about us. Get over yourself darn-it.

  19. dancergypsy says:

    Hi Sunshine! How nice of you to share such welcoming thoughts. :) I agree with you on several accounts. I wish there were a way to help people feel more comfortable in being the best version of themselves, but this is their choice. One must take the time to get to know who they are before they can ever realize what that is inside them. I too, am perfectly content to be me, striving to be the best I can. I do not hope to ever settle for less, no matter how hard it may appear. We all judge, but the key is to use our judgments gracefully. I am not afraid of judgments, because they open opportunity for me question myself. Ultimately, I do not concern myself with the judgments of others that do not benefit me, do not encourage me to grow, because I love myself. Everyone should love themselves. Thank you for sharing!

    Hi Lisa! I will never get over myself. It’s a pity you are upset with me, for what reasons, I am not sure… but those are your feelings, not mine. I know who I am. You do not. Maybe you took something I stated personally against yourself. After all, my hopes to learn about understanding the honesty of others was not directed to a particular person. It was generalized, in meaning, “I wonder how to understand such people of this nature?” I do not hate people who lie or are dishonest. If you believe this to be true, that is a false assumption on your part. Everyone has lied. I have lied before, if it is of any comfort to you, in sharing this truth. The difference in knowing this as a human, for me, is that I do not want any part of me to be a lie as long as I can avoid. This sets me apart from many others, without me so much hoping for it to. I choose to be independent from particular aspects of the world. The world is not living its life to make certain my dreams come true. I am.

    • Mary says:

      Dancergypsy, by the “world” I assume you mean the people of the world or society as a whole? Are your parents part of this spectrum? The President of the United States too, or wherever you might live? The teachers in your schools? The resources available for study, like authors of books and such? Most importantly. the earth itself, the sun too, both of which provide you with an endless supply of empowerment to keep your dream of life alive? Like I said earlier, you aren’t in this alone, there is a myriad of what you might consider “invisible” energy helping you attain your dream. I don’t know exactly what your definition of your “dream” is but essentially, i think what most everyone’s basic,most important successful dream is, is happiness, health, and longevity and the best investment I think anyone can make in themselves and in others, is in these things all wrapped up in education. It keeps giving back.

      For some recent generations there has been this sweep of false thought that focuses most on separation and prevetntion of co-dependence on people from an early age, as young as babies a few months old. Instead of breastfeeding, formula. Instead of longer paid maternity leave, day-care and right back to work before a mother even has a chance to heal and bond with her child. Instead of cuddles, pacifiers. Instead of picking up a baby when crying, the “cry-it-out” methos is respected more. Instead of sleeping in the same room as your newborn, put them in a dark room all alone in a cage-like crib instead of in a little basket near your own bed. Do you see how this sort of thought forces early independence while in the long run is just detrimental to the miraculous and free human phenomenon called love and support? People end up depending on artificial forms of soothing and this, is the disease. People spend their teens and most of their adulthood healing their “inner child” trying to find themselves again, because in reality they were forced to lose themselves too early on to begin with. We are all children at heart, who need other people, who need love, support and natural living. Here’s to a revolution of never losing sight of that divine and really simple connection.

      • Mary says:

        “Create your own method. Don’t depend slavishly on mine. Make up something that will work for you! But keep breaking ‘traditions’, I beg you.” ~Konstantin Stanislavisky

      • dancergypsy says:

        Hi Mary! I understand your viewpoints, but your viewpoints and mine are two different perspectives, formed from different beliefs on “needs”. Of all the things you have listed, I take note of them on a daily basis and am grateful, for the ones that matter to me. I do not wish to rain on your parade, and I’d say, if your lifestyle makes you happy you should live the way you are living. I’d like to respectfully offer you a few things to consider, not in any way to impose my beliefs on you.

        If I were raised the way you have described, according to your ideal standard, then I would not be capable of surviving in my environment or accomplishing the things I wish to accomplish. I’m not sure if you are a mother or not, but I’m sure that any children raised within a culture like the one you describe would have best chances of survival within a community of that kind. They will most likely expect to always have those “comforts”. Unless they are promised to always be provided those things, they will face many disappointments outside of that particular community. Personally, I would define a pacifier as an “artificial” form of soothing.

        From and Anthropological standpoint, the world will never move in the direction you are hoping for. It is too late for us to go back in time to complete natural living, universally. That is not to say you cannot build a larger community of like-minded individuals.

        Also, interestingly enough, according to research and my father’s experience with the Maasai, in Africa, children are still brought up in what they believe to be “natural living” where mothers wipe their infant’s bottoms with corncobs and allow them to roll in the dirt. They can even eat dirt if they want. They go so far as to let their children play with spears and machetes as young as possible. They do not care if they lose a finger, because that his how they believe children learn quickly. Most of those children learn to become incredible hunters and survivors, and they are thriving.

        In India, people have a unique belief on what is a “divine and really simple connection” that they appear to experience much happiness from in life.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yamnDxSq2M

        And in response to your quotation below, I’d say, according to history people have been breaking traditions, consistently in several cultures for many years. It would be interesting to know what Konstantin Stanislavisky thinks of the world today.

      • Mary says:

        Dancergypsy, your perspective, and I mean this without intending to be rude or hurtful, is a hopeless one and it’s never too late to make progress as long as the world isn’t breeding people with your mindset. Yes, I agree with Sunshine, your perspective is “interesting” but not in a way that I would deem successful nor do I applaud your articulate speech and well-formed paragraphy because essentially, your thought process is not at all positive nor inspiring, nor constructive in any way. From an Anthropological standpoint, “an apple doesn’t fall far from the tree but it can roll pretty far.” Do the research, it’s true!

        Best of luck to you in your endeavours, and if you ever do become a parent, I will pray that your child will miraculously be instilled with good principles of hope that will never allow any cynic to tear them down. And you may, if you like, use the child playing with a machete as an analogy, as a metaphor, for defending their existence. Too bad your father isn’t there to teach them the “right thing” to do, instead of doing the kind of research that allows his own child to openly ridicule them. If you went to Massai, what would you do for those people, what would you teach them? Is your attitude itself not like a child playing with a dangerous weapon?

        Peace.

  20. Sunshine says:

    Unmaskd, in reading your new post two moons away from this one, I just realized that the reference to death is not so much about Moktut fearing death of his life as it is about not being honest in expressing himself. I recall your question of the day in which the answer was honest self expression. Here it is about Puram Bam revealing to Moktut that he hasn’t been honest with himself. It’s as if the honest self expression is in the form of art–poetry, painting, music–any creative art form that is the self expression which is the outlet that one “finds a way to confess so others feel what the artist feels”. The artist or in this case emperor wants what he builds to live on and be remembered but when lying to himself, it is not honest self expression of his legacy even if he is the only one who knows, it bothers him and that is why he despises it so much that he will go to his grave with not having fully expressed himself honestly.

  21. dancergypsy says:

    After giving it considerable thought, I decided to take the time to make myself clear, before any further time passes, and this is soon forgotten.
    I had hoped that by openly sharing– someone would be interested in discussing what lies, honesty, and truth are, and how to deal with them. But somehow, my posts failed to lead anyone much in this direction anywhere in relation to the Unmaskd tale. I do not blame this on anyone. It was a lack of conciseness on my part. As a result, I have gained tips on social skills/relationships, and directions to “get over myself”. All of which, except for the last, has been cordially appreciated. Now, I would like to make one last effort to steer this in the direction I originally intended, but failed miserably. After this I’ll drop it once and for all.

    I have trouble with the line: “Lies are neither good nor bad.” I have spent several days contemplating this line. I even tried reading further into it, which is why I left my first post. I was trying to consider: how a lie could be thought of as “good”?
    I read more trying to connect it to any of the dots, looking for what I may have been missing. I agree with the line: “You are your mind, and your every honest thought is a part of you.” and all the way up to, “lie is not the opposite of truth”. If it is not the opposite, then what is it, besides the “truth’s death sentence”?

    It is my belief that lies are not inherently “bad” on all accounts, depending on your definition of bad. This brings me to state: Not all lies are the same, not all truth is the same, not all honesty is the same, for everyone. Yes, truth is fact when we believe it, but even facts are sometimes subject to lies. Take for example how people once believed the world to be flat. It was not an outrageous crime to believe this, but it caused a lot of fear, and it was not true.

    I suppose I’m curious as to what kind of lies this story is referring to? At first I thought it was generalizing lies, like an umbrella, but then I do not believe you can properly claim all lies to be good.

    It is my belief that the world collectively believes in lies, from the moment we cognitively begin to process information. Growing up we are taught we are thin, fat, short, loud, quiet, and so on. The world around us tells us what we are from a very early age, and even tells us how we should live. Some of these things are bearable, beneficial and we may even enjoy hearing, but other things like, “you are ugly” are not a wonderful thing to be told. I would say, all of the things people say we are- are a lies, unless you yourself believes it is true, even still it being a lie. When you believe something, it becomes your truth. You put your faith into it and that is how you see it. The real truth is, everyone was born perfect, before knowledge began programming itself into our minds without our permission, but we forgot and learned what the world told us we were. As adults, this is why so many do not know who they are.

    If lies are not bad, in some way, then the world would be swarming with gloriously happy souls. But, it’s not! Why? Because they have chosen to believe lies about themselves. We are so good at lying as humans because we are taught it is good. In fact, lying has become so clever at times, we don’t even recognize them as any different from truth.

    This is why, I do not believe anyone 100% always. This is why, I have never met a real person. It is not because I am superior to anyone as a human. It is simply because I have learned to recognize lies. I am conditioning myself not to lie at all, not even to myself. This is not easy. I am not a pro, but I made a promise to myself that I would do the best I can to capture my thoughts and not carelessly accept a lie, whenever I discover one. I do not always believe myself or others, until I decide it is a good choice to believe. I protect my heart and mind, because it is the only one I will ever have. I honor the hearts and minds of others too, with hope that someday I can encourage others to think deeply, love and guard their hearts and minds, as well.

    Skeptics are often frowned upon, and I wonder why?

    Take care everyone!

  22. Sunshine says:

    dancergypsy, Your perspective is interesting and I welcome it as a breath of fresh air. We are inundated with lies externally and internally to have to continually discard the lies coming at us from all angles. I am going to listen and speak more conscientiously. What would truth, honesty and lies be without words whether speaking or hearing them audibly or hearing that quiet internal voice?

  23. Mary says:

    For the record, I would rather wipe my bum with a corncob husks than to condone wasting paper and polluting nature. If I had a corn field, you bet your a**, that’s what I’d do with the coverings. And you know what, I roll down hills all the time, it’s super fun! What kid wouldn’t agree?

    • dancergypsy says:

      Hi Mary! I understand your perspective. I don’t take it personally. I never expected anyone to agree with me. I understand also, that you do not fully grasp my mindset nor do you realize that I am an extremely hopeful being. I should note that my “thought process” in line with the one I’ve shared here, is influenced by an ancient Toltec legend. It is not religious, not filled with cynicism, but rather enormous hope in the belief that we are all artist capable of painting whatever vision we hope to believe, with the understanding that it may not be true for everyone. The only thing I believe not to be a lie or false, is love. I think that is where life comes from. But the trouble is learning to understand what love is.

      I’m not sure I will ever have a child/children because I have not found a lover with a similar vision or understanding, as mine. If I did, you can rest assured they would be loved and inspired to see the world very differently than even where your mindset limits you.

      Personally, I would be quite disappointed if my father was there to teach them the “right way”. He hardly feels he has the answers to was is exactly “right”. He was there to learn from them and you assume that he was there to do research. I never stated this. What did I write that convinced you that I was openly ridiculing them? It was not my intention by any stretch of the imagination to accomplish that. I love the Maasai people, with respect, so much so that I would never walk in and tell them how they should change. I understand them, though I choose not to live like them.

      The mindset I have is not one you believe it to be. I’m certain if you were to meet me in person, you would be rather surprised. There is only so much these comments can convey.

      I will leave you with one last thought… I was born Native American. The tribe I come from is smaller than most. The language is almost completely lost. My great grandfather and aunt were students of the Carlisle Indian School, in Pennsylvania, specifically to be taught what was thought to be the “right thing”. Looking back, many people, not just anthropologists notice their mistake in such an arrogant thought. I do not live with bitterness about this, instead I have a deep desire to understand people of EVERY kind around the world, including you. Understanding is where I believe love exists.

      The truth is, I don’t so much want to change people to live like me. I only hope to inspire them to think that maybe they do not know the answers for everyone. It seems that is a popular way of thinking throughout history. The idea behind realizing the possibility that everything is a lie, leaves you, not hopeless when you really understand it. You start to understand, it’s all a dream people choose to believe in. Whatever you want to believe can be your truth. The reality you want or hope is limitless! You create it for yourself. The world does not.

      • Mary says:

        Hi DancerGypsy.

        You’re right in this, that not just any one perspective can be the “right” one for everyone but I will say this, that when something is approached with the Earth’s and a Child’s best interest at heart, it IS the right way and I’m sure that essentially, Native Indian thought is rooted in this belief and I try my best to live by many Native spiritual principles even though I am not of that origin per se in this life, but perhaps in another life I was, or even moreso, on a parallel spiritual realm presently. Have you ever read the book “Animal Speak, The Spiritual & Magical Powers of Creatures Great & Small” by Ted Andrews? Or, have you ever heard of this Native Indian quote?… “We do not niherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children.” This is love exemplified by people of the Divine Root.

        I guess what made me feel as though you referred to the Maasai people in a disrespectful way is that you didn’t express your love for them initially and that you basically pointed out these certain behaviours of their way of parenting in stride with the thought that you disagreed with “natural living” and your tone assumed that the way you grew up as opposed to how they are being raised, is a better way. By using the term,”incredible” to describe them, I took it at face value since we’re on the subject of lying and honesty and read it in your initially cynical perspective. That’s why I literarily reacted defensively on their behalf. I’m glad to hear your response and this one definitely made me smile and most definitely made me think positively. :) Thanks for sharing.

        It seems afterall, that we do all need eachother to productively and truthfully expand on our own beliefs and perspectives and hopefully always for goodness sake and in the right direction which is to me, the very act of respect and peaceful resolution. I found this quote that I thought was applicable to the effects of society’s influences and generational evolution, “The turning point in the process of growing up is when you discover the core of strength within you that survives all hurt.” by Max Lerner.

        Have a good night. :)

  24. Proverbs26:23 Insincere talk that hides what you are really thinking is like a fine glaze on a cheap clay pot.

    Bottoms UP! ;-)

  25. dancergypsy says:

    Well, Mary, it certainly looks like we’re getting somewhere with these ideas, aren’t we? Goodness, I was slightly concerned for a while. I thought, “Poor guys, probably think I’ve just come in here to tell them all how to think!” I really want to know what YOU think. :) It’s really cool that you like Native American culture. I have read the book you ask me about. It has some fascinating ideas, for sure! I have also read the quote before. It’s a beautiful concept.

    I’m very thrilled we cleared up the misunderstanding in regards to the Massai… I think, maybe… I do sincerely believe they are “incredible”. Hmmm…

    Here’s what I think I should do, that will serve as a very good example of my entire point in sharing here about lies/honesty, but I don’t know if anyone is really following:

    You say, “By using the term,”incredible” to describe them, I took it at face value since we’re on the subject of lying and honesty and read it in your initially cynical perspective.”

    This is what I believe happened to you! :)

    Are you ready for this? I hope you are not frightened. You might think this is a scary thought, but you mustn’t be afraid. Alright? Think of yourself as a child, or better yet… we are both little girls sitting in a beautiful field and I’m about to tell you the monster you believe to exist under your bed is NOT real. I don’t want you to feel stupid about this at all. I’m not trying to be smarter. It just so happens I figured out that all this time the monster under MY bed wasn’t real and I sincerely wanted to help you understand this too. I know how it feels, you see, because I’m a little girl just like you in many ways. So here we are…

    Mary, I’m so glad you are honest when you can be, and by you telling me that you took what I wrote at “face value” and you said, “your initially cynical perspective”, I’m able to tell you a secret. I’m not cynical at all. In fact, that perspective is only your interpretation of what I wrote. You created me in your head with your paintbrush while you were sitting reading my words and your imagination began to form ideas about me, which you believed to be true and caused you a negative reaction. I’m not offended by the fact your interpretation of me was what I believe to be a lie. Somehow, without you even noticing, at some point “cynical” crept into your mind and you accepted that lie about me, without knowing if it were true. You chose to believe a lie without even realizing. You don’t have to do that anymore! You see!? :)

    Now, for me, I’m going to be honest with you and myself; I don’t know you. I most likely never will. I cannot create a picture of you to be anything I would trust as true, because I know that everything I read from you is going to be my interpretation, not really who you are. Does that make sense? :)

    I realize that often my raw honesty can sound cynical when people cannot hear my voice or see my eyes. My friends around the world, had to learn this too. This is one reason I’m trying to learn to write and speak with excellent words, and use them effectively. Language is one of the ways we share our dream/art with others and where it is interpreted. Word are sometimes what we use to paint a vision in our minds.

    Anyhow, sometimes I also forget that people do not think like me, and trying to explain myself straight from my head is hard. To bring others around me to a point of understanding takes a lot of time. For example: I want to clarify something that I posted. It may have caused a lot of misunderstanding. If I recall somewhere I wrote, “I have less time for people who are not honest with themselves.” I know what I mean by that, which has a very deep meaning, but for all of you out there, it doesn’t. Most of you could look at that and think, “Gosh, what a snob.” If you have followed closely, I clearly state I think everything is a lie, right? So, I’m going to point out that statement was a lie, though partly true, because I didn’t write it correctly. If it were entirely true I would not be here, and I certainly wouldn’t be studying human culture most of the time. hahaha!

    I guess I am a kind of riddle. My mother, bless her soul, is one of the only people who almost knows me. She has been so patient to read my writings, and listen to my theories all my life. And gosh, have I thought up some pretty crazy ideas in my time!! She has always listened even when she didn’t have the faintest idea what I was trying to say! And for the record, I am sane, and I do not do drugs. :) All of this to say, I welcome ideas, and thought-provoking honesty, as long as you can understand I may not agree. And, even if I don’t express something, like my love for something, doesn’t mean it isn’t inside me. :)

    I guess that wraps it all up!

  26. dancergypsy says:

    P.S. Mary, I wanted to let you know, that I never stated I disagreed with “natural living”. My efforts of sharing was not that point. You may have missed it. I shared with you about the Maasai and India was to point out that not everyone lives the same, not everyone finds happiness in what you believe. I try to approach cultures without bias, because this is the only way to fully try to understand. Anthropologist are not supposed to have an opinion on what is “right or wrong”. They were pure examples. I wasn’t promoting anything.

    I meant to share that I would not survive very well in my life, if I grew up from the start, believing that I needed love and support every day from people. To be very honest, there have been countless moments when I felt no one loved me (besides my mother and cat), I had absolutely zero support to the point of hunger, and if I believed it was absolutely necessary to have outside support, I would not have believed in myself, alone. I would not be where I am today, if I did not believe I did not need anyone else. All I need is the love I have for myself. The truth is, you do not know where you will end up in life, regardless of your upbringing. In the end, all you have is you. I hope that made it more clear.

  27. Mary says:

    Hey there again DancerGypsy,

    The word cynical didn’t just imaginarily creep into my mind, that’s truly the aura I felt after being exposed to your ideas of things “being too late” in the world for a good revolution of fortifying a conciousness of Oneness as a Whole, which would mean a positive train of thought in the best interest of future generations in the hopes of prevention of the perils of addiction, unhealthy habits and potential roots of depression. Also, you did somewhat sekf-proclaimed yourself as such in a previous post in “Real People” I think. You questioned as a finishing thought that “I wonder why cynics are frowned upon.”

    I’m not quite certain what you mean to imply about the “monster under my bed” ecause I didn’t imply any fear on my part but perhaps for many little girls or boys, ghosts would be the “monsters” and to be honest with you, they are not anything I have ever been afraid of, in fact I embrace their visits, they enlighten me. The true villain, in my wholehearted opinion, is Atheism. It’s this thought that there is no Higher Power, no God, nothing but a dissected, over-analyzed contradicting school of thought that attempts to trivialize, insult and deplete all the miracles of Love and Spirituality and the intersecting line of parallelism, otherwise known as Transcendance.

    I’m glad we cleared this all up too and I’m so happy that throughout your whole life, you had your mother to back you up and believe in you and all your efforts in writing. That’s love. :) I suppose no matter how much we think we may know about something, unless we experience it first-hand, we cannot truly and honestly KNOW it.

    Cheers. :)

  28. dancergypsy says:

    Thank you, Mary, for sharing everything you have. I feel that you have missed nearly every point in relation to lies/honesty I was trying to get feedback on, but it’s alright. I was looking for something else when I decided to post in the beginning, but I guess I didn’t do a very good job at getting my message across. That’s okay, though! :) I completely realize, you simply do not understand. Not many people do, but I will continue to try and learn how to get my message across better. This has been good exercise.

    I think your dream is a beautiful dream, really. I wish I could believe the world will one day transform itself and everyone will be free from addictions, illnesses, and all the positive things we want. I don’t believe anyone should give up on living a positive life, pursuing their positive dreams, but I guess I’ve seen too much of the world to see how it’s practical, anywhere in the near future, unless everyone suddenly starts to agree on the same ideas all at once. I also absolutely NEVER self-proclaimed myself to be a cynic. I asked a question: “Skeptics are often frowned upon, and I wonder why?” That has nothing to do with me being cynical or not.

    To end this conversation, I will say this: I do not try to claim to KNOW anything, but I do BELIEVE many things.

    Thank you for your time. :)

    • Mary says:

      I stand corrected on the “skeptic” comment, that was my error. I thought you wrote cynic as I was solely relying on what I read a few days ago without much time now to go back and re-read everything. I see your very logical perspective and I really appreciate this conversation with you. I see how my “dream” may seem like a Utopic world, but within each family nucleus, conventional or not, within each school, within each neighborhood, each city, each state or province, within each country…if we start small and band together, beginning with Good leaders, it will one day be possible, perhaps not fully in our lifetime but the work and the efforts can be passed on to the children the future leaders, but only thorugh example…it’s really about believing, because if you don’t believe, then what really can you achieve? Like you said “forming communities,” the bigger the better, hopefully the communities we form will be ones with one common goal in mind and it takes me right back to the native indian quote.

      I think you are really smart and your attitude is realisitc and I truly hope that when you’re smiling, you are truly smiling. You seem to have this relentless spirit to get your message across and that is absolutely awesome and so admirable. I will leave you with this last thought that has helped me throughout my life in all senses and directions of the statement. I had a poster in my room while growing up of this funny man with cotton candy hair who watched as though I had the Mona Lisa hanging on my wall. Directly next to that poster was one of Johnny Depp. (lol) Anyway, so here is what it read in a more concise translation… “Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds”. ~Albert Einstein
      Lots of love to you. Xo)

  29. dancergypsy says:

    oops! Major correction needed above!

    Cross this out: I wish I could believe the world will one day transform itself and everyone will be free from addictions, illnesses, and all the positive things we want. I don’t believe anyone should give up on living a positive life, pursuing their positive dreams, but I guess I’ve seen too much of the world to see how it’s practical, anywhere in the near future, unless everyone suddenly starts to agree on the same ideas all at once.

    Replace with this: I wish I could believe the world will one day transform itself and everyone would be free from addictions, illnesses, and all the positive things we want, but I guess I’ve seen too much of the world to see how it’s practical, anywhere in the near future, unless everyone suddenly starts to agree on the same ideas all at once. I don’t believe anyone should give up on living a positive life, pursuing their positive dreams.

    The End. :)

  30. Mary says:

    “The End” is just another way to welcome a “New Beginning”.

  31. dancergypsy says:

    Just out of curiosity… with my fading hope here…

    Has anyone figured out, noticed, or considered what they believe Puram Bam meant when he said, “Lies are neither bad nor good”?

    Is that not significant to anyone here, besides me?

    I feel like it’s very important, and in relation to what I have been trying to say all along, but with a different style.

    Mary, since you realized that you made a mistake in thinking I was a cynic I’d like to try and make my point clear again with a different angle.

    Pretend (meaning it’s not real) that lies are like terrible monsters (not friendly ghosts) and you imagine them to be real as a child, because children are really great at imagining even the impossible. One day, you finally realize that terrible monster, wasn’t real, at all, but for many years you believe it was true. That lie caused you a lot of suffering as a child because you thought it was real. It was a lie. This lie, I believe we could judge to be a bad lie to believe.

    Next, pretend, that lies are buttercup flowers that actually sing, and you imagine them to be real. One day, you finally realize that buttercup flowers that actually sing aren’t real, at all, but for many years you believed it was true. That lie caused you a lot of happiness as a child. It was a lie, but you didn’t want it to be a lie, so you continued to believe and it continued to be real. This lie, I believe we could judge to be a good lie to believe, simply because it made you happy.

    I don’t know if you follow at all so I will use a real-life example:

    At first, you thought I was a cynic (terrible monster/lie) and you imagined it to be real, because your mind is so amazing and clever at imagining things, much like when you were a child when you could imagine the impossible. This idea you had of me being a cynic, was something that indeed, crept into your mind. You did not think about it, deeply, because if you had, you would have recognized your error. You were not skeptical. You imagined it to be true right away and there it was- POOF! I was a cynic. Was this a bad lie?

    After much, you finally realized that me being a cynic was a mistake to believe about me, but for however many hours you spent believing it was true. I’m not sure what you thought or how it made you feel, but judging from what you shared, it was not “positive”. Now since you realized your “mistake” you believe me to be something different- POOF! I’m really smart, which could also, by my definition be consider a lie, because the TRUTH is, you know nothing. Are these lies good?

    This is what happens to everyone. We all do this. This is why I am often skeptical. I don’t trust myself or anyone else to tell me what is true, unless I think about it and decide to believe whatever lies I want to believe good or bad.

    After all, Puram Bam, said, “Lies are neither bad nor good” so it must be true. Right?

    It makes total sense to believe a terrible ugly lie is perfectly fine, neither good nor bad. Right?

    How can a lie be good?

    Or are lies, nothing?? Hmmmm… I wonder what you guys are thinking!?

    I have to be going now, but I want to let you know, Mary, I sincerely appreciate your kind words! So much! I don’t have time to elaborate. I’m in a rush to get out the door for a very long day. But much love to you!

    Take care everyone! :)

    (P.S.) I don’t have time to read over this so I’m just keeping my fingers crossed there are no wrecking flaws to confuse you all to unspeakable yonders!

    • Mary says:

      Hi again,

      I am a very patient person but one thing I am increasingly getting better at is to not getting pulled into the same argument over and over and over again, it’s like quicksand. But resolution is extremely important and I often find it in myself because I trust myself, my intuition and my decisions but sometimes i make mistakes too. I feel like I’m letting tolerance run out when it comes to participating in conversations where “getting the last word in” seems to have become more the goal than the actual principle of the lesson. On this note, I will try my best to share my take on the real issue here in hopes to help unscrabble the moral of this story scrupulously with real scenarios in everyday life.

      Before I do, I would like to clarify that what I realized was that I made a mistake in the word, not the feeling, there’s a big difference there. But as the conversation progressed, I saw that your perpsective started to shift and expand too in which case it brought on a more positive connection between us. Contrary to what you might think, I think it is very important to mention a love for something, for that is one of the best ways to let its honourableness shine. Your showance of respect for it prevails and that is the door of opportunity that slashes cynical thought and lets true light in…. or out.

      I do believe that in some things, there is a solid “right” and a solid “wrong” and in between there is a bridge, a path, through a field where intention mingles with something else that drives it.

      So, is lying bad?

      Well, there’s intentionally malicious lying which is bad and then there’s innocent “lying” which could be coined as somewhat “good” depending on the situation, of course.

      In romantic love, when it comes to faithfullness, lying is bad, it’s not ok. It’s betrayal. If someone was unfaithfull and then was honest about it, it’s admitting to a mistake in which case the act was bad and may be an effect of an underlying issue, but the admission was good. If there is remorse, there is honourability present but it doesn’t mean that it’s ok to stay together. It’s a whole other ballgame and it’s a really relative situation with many factors involved.

      In medicine, would a “placebo” be considered lying if indeed people can cure themselves with the power of the mind? This is questionable but am leaning more towards no, it’s not ‘bad’ lying, if indeed the condition or the ailment isn’t extremely serious or life threatening and the placebo is working positively.

      When it comes to children, I think they are the most innocent and candid and honest beings on earth and if that can be preserved by example especially, it’s the most important and most beautiful thing. It is not ok to lie to them about anything but sometimes witholding some truths or details of truths until a more emotionally mature age is reached or until a child asks about something on their own, is indeed being honest on the adult’s part as they’re being protective of the child’s mental health, it’s not bad and it’s not lying. There’s also something that’s somewhat like non-malicious and innocently “ignorant” lying which is being done unknowingly, or out of feeling intimidation from the influence of an authoritative figure, like a teacher or a parent to a young child. The child may be lead into a “lie” because of the type of questioning being initiated by the adult, but that’s not a moral error on the child’s part, it’s the adult’s approach that needs adjusting through experience, especially when the adult means well and they’re in a very influential position in the child’s life. It’s a strategy mind “game” which requires careful and sensitive attention to not impress a projection of an assumption and it requires good listening and intuitively emotional and empathetic skills, first and foremost. Self-awareness, not self-consciousness is the beginning of many beautiful relationships as the first focuses on the effect our own actions and attitudes have on others and the latter is more about the importance of how we are perceived by others.

      It’s all too common that adults assume that children are “manipulative” from a very young age and that’s so wrong and so sad. A child is only cleverly manipulative of a situation if the child is raised with those examples. Like, for instance the common mistake that a parent or teacher may make toward a child of a young age is sarcastically “accusing” this: “you only come to me and show me love when you need something!” that is incredibly confusing to a child and at the same time they are unconsciously learning to manipulate a situation when in reality, they simply need something or want something and it’s the parents kind duty to provide it or decline it with a proper explanation. Sarcasm in this sense is emotionally damaging, injecting undeserved feelings of guilt and teaching the wrong thing.

      When it comes to intentionally committing a crime, the act is bad, and it’s dishonest and lying about it is even worse. If you’re driving and you’re speeding and you get a ticket and then you contest the ticket when you know you were wrong, it’s lying. If you’re in an emergency situation, a life threatening situation, and you’re speeding to get to a ‘safe place’, it’s not an intentional crime, it may still warant a ticket because it’s dangerous but then it’s also honestly contestable, the judgement relies on the principle values and moral clarity of the “judge,” and being accurately merciful is a wise skill and a good virtue.

      That’s my take on lies and truth and the good, bad and the ugly about it.

      :o)

      • dancergypsy says:

        >>>I feel like I’m letting tolerance run out when it comes to participating in conversations where “getting the last word in” seems to have become more the goal than the actual principle of the lesson. On this note, I will try my best to share my take on the real issue here in hopes to help unscrabble the moral of this story scrupulously with real scenarios in everyday life.

        I hope you are not implying that I wish to be “getting the last word in”, because I’ve only hoped to be polite enough to show I care by continuously responding. This will be my last response.

        >>>In medicine, would a “placebo” be considered lying if indeed people can cure themselves with the power of the mind? This is questionable but am leaning more towards no, it’s not ‘bad’ lying, if indeed the condition or the ailment isn’t extremely serious or life threatening and the placebo is working positively.

        That is an excellent example. People often need something that could essentially be a “lie” just to believe in the truth.

        I so very much appreciate all of your perspectives! It allowed me to gain feedback, which has been wonderful.

        There is a book I think you would enjoy. It’s called The Voice of Knowledge, by Don Miguel Ruiz. From everything you share, and your interest in Native American culture, I think you would appreciate it, but I could be mistaken. Anyhow, take care, Mary! :)

  32. Sunshine says:

    Unmaskd, I think these truth and lies get passes down through the generations and that is what you mean about them living. I realized first hand how some of my truths and lies are continuing on but I have the power to change that by conscious effort to redefine what I pass on. In no way is it easy, but it must be done so that there will be more truth and less lie that lives on.

    • dancergypsy says:

      Sunshine! I know I’m not Unmaskd, but I just wanted to say, I think that is a very interesting way think and looking at truth and lies… I think you are right! :) What a cool way to think! Thank you for sharing that thought. I’ve been actually sitting thinking… “I wonder what those people think out there about lies and truth?” :) I really want to know! haha! That piece of feedback was awesome!

  33. dancergypsy says:

    Dear People Who May Have Been Listening or Not:

    I want to leave you all with something you may not have been expecting during my visit here. I want to take this moment, before another moment passes, and tell you all something I believe more than anything, above all else.

    All my life I was taught many things, told to believe many things, and much of it I discovered to be a lie. It caused me a lot of suffering, and that is why I have made such a point to spend so much time here. It was my hope to hear from all of you about the tale, but also to share what I have experienced in a small way.

    I do believe that everything is a lie, and the only truth to exist without flaw is love. I didn’t share that with you in hopes to destroy your dreams or beliefs. Rather, I wanted to bring something greater I have no words to explain. I was waiting for the right time. I think that time is now.

    Whether or not you understand me or not, this is what I wish to leave you with…

    When you were born; you were born perfect. You are perfect still. That’s who you really are. You just forgot to remember, because all you remember are lies now, otherwise known as knowledge. I’m going to tell you a secret I learned. I believe, quite possibly one of the biggest lies to exist on the planet. I believe, truly, with all my heart, that absolutely anything is possible, and I have firm reasons for believing this to be true.

    No matter what happens, no matter what people say, choose to believe what you believe, while establishing it with firm reason as best you can, and nourish it with your love. Hold on to your truest dream. Your dream is your life. You are the artist capable of creating whatever you choose. You decide how to see your art. You may have doubts, questions, and fear about all of it, but you can always rely on your reasons and love.

    From my heart & mind,
    dancergypsy

    “As with anything, if you want to believe, you can find reasons to.” -Extremely Loud & Incredibly Close

  34. I think I might try to simplify this….IS lying bad? YES!!!

    Do we sometimes have to be a *bit* economical with the truth to spare others feelings or preserve privacy? Possibly. Should we do this in even the slightest way? Probably not.

    Is honesty the best policy? Yes! For it is only when we are presented with reality and the truth that we know for sure what we are dealing with.

    We usually like this clarity for ourselves (Unless we are lost in the midst of some self delusion)…so we need to respect others and give them the same clarity that we expect…. It is a form of respect….even though sometimes the truth inevitably hurts.

    Yes we have to use discernment….in how we phrase things and in what we put across. This is a form of integrity.

    Discernment sometimes requires omitting some aspects of the truth. Is this the same thing as lying? NOT AT ALL…

    Who wants to live life with a foundation in anything less than the Truth?

    #notme ;-)

    • dancergypsy says:

      I understand you, Sarah. Thank you so very much for sharing.

      The underlining question everyone hopes to know and answer, in some way, is the Truth. What is the Truth? That answer usually is established on Knowledge or belief on information, but it doesn’t necessarily make it true. If we BELIEVE in something, that is often what credits it to be truth, which is fallible. I think this subject and the way I have been looking at it is deeper than where most of you are looking. It is a well understood belief that lying is bad, due to integrity, but it is not well understood that “Lies are neither good nor bad.”

      I’m not going to continue to try and explain any further now, but I do sincerely appreciate your time and feedback!

      I would agree with Puram Bam’s statement, “Lies are neither good nor bad.” and “Lie is not the opposite of truth — it is simply the truth’s death sentence.”

      • I dont think what I said really contradicted the point that *lies are neither good nor bad…* Discernment is GOOD surely…. and the use of discernment requires a judgement on HOW to express one’s truth.

  35. dancergypsy says:

    :) Well, I am going to give this topic a rest, and say goodbye now, because I could literally talk about it for months with people and not get tired, but I know probably everyone is turning blue. I didn’t just want to disappear and you guys assume I didn’t care or was angry or cynical. haha! I just have important things to focus on, like my dreams. There are so many aspects to lying/lies that intrigue me. I guess ultimately it is a matter of the mind that drives me to investigate so intensely!

    It occurred to me that some of you may like to read two article called Truth or Fiction and How & Why We Lie To Ourselves: Cognitive Dissonance, which I have both posted on my Tumblr: dancergypsy.tumblr.com.

    Take care everyone! Mary, Sarah, Ashley, and Sunshine; you all have been so tolerant, and informative, considering you do not know me. I realize what I have been saying isn’t easy to comprehend at times and leaves room for assumptions, but I had a good time trying to express myself for the first time via Internet like this, whether or not you guys caught my real message or not. I never had a chat like this before, so thanks. ;)

    I think you all are wonderful people! :)

    • Must be tiresome being so deeeep ;-)

      I dont think we missed the point of what you are saying…? Your message was what exactly?

      Lies are neither good or bad? This is an example of a strand of philosophy called amoralism… I guess this is a tricky subject on moralistic grounds…

      I totally get the point because sometimes life situations are so complex you have to make a tricky judgement call (one that if the person knew the whole truth they potentially would consider that you lied to them)…

      BUT this is the DISCERNMENT thing…and so long as it is about something greater than self protection I think there is a place for it. (rarely though).

      We each have our own reality and the truth of that reality is ours to do with what we wish. Some realities would be more *grounded* (turthful?) than others… But that is not really a comment on are lies good or bad. I think where you are consciously telling a lie for underhand, manipulative and self preservation reasons…THAT is when lying is wrong. After that there is a whole range of scope which reflects our complex lives and requires us to make judgement calls which do not necessarily advertise the *Truth*.

      Is lying right or wrong? In terms of amoralism it is a neutral point… if our code of reference is ourselves alone it is a neutral point, (though others might disagree on that) …

      The thing is we live in a society and there are rules and regulations…but are these the objective aribter or our rights and wrongs… no not always…and no not even

      You see UNIVERSAL law is something entirely different from man’s law or sense of right and wrong (unless he understands universal law)

      I expect THIS is what you are getting at….but then again I might be wrong!

      • A Karmic judgement call (one which correctly balances a situation which may be protracted and complex with it s roots in the deep distant past – ?other lifetimes) has to take in a whole lot more than simple rights and wrongs….

        What may look obvious to the logical mind in a situation, or from the outside looking in, is often wide of the mark unless you are the person IN a particular situation

        … Walk a mile in my shoes!

        It is the CONTEXT of the judgement which dictates if something is the truth of a situation… and telling the truth while finalising these karmic ties can be anything less than clear… THIS is where the neurality of the comment *lying is neither good or bad* comes into play….

        You could say that telling an APPARENT lie, which sorts out a whole load of nonsense, is eminently better than a truth which protracts everyone’s agony.

        Truth is sometimes relative…. but even that is up for debate because in many ways we have marginalised the truth…

        I would just go back to the discernment thing…and make the point that it is probably not good to generalise! every situation, relationship etc requires a different handling… so what is the truth in some situation…may not be the truth in another… Hence the comment *lies are neither good nor bad*… ???

        #thisisnotanaprilfool #thenagain … ;-)

  36. dancergypsy says:

    Hi Sarah! No, it is not tiresome to be me, but sometimes a challenge which teaches me to grow. I understand about universal laws, and what you shared. Thank you for sharing. I was going to not respond but decided to politely answer your questions, I will put it simply.

    All Knowledge are Lies. No Truth are Lies. No Truth are Knowledge.

    “What is truth is real. What is not truth is not real. It is an illusion, but it looks real. Love is real. It is the supreme expression of life.”

    Lies are not real, but we think so because we believe them to be so. It is our belief in knowledge that makes anything real to us, good or bad, but it does not make it truth. People associate truth to their knowledge, when knowledge is fallible. This is why so many have debated knowledge for ages.

    Honesty is a different story. You can only be real/honest to yourself and only when you understand your own illusions and who you are. We may never seem real to another person because we cannot control another person’s perception, unless they agree on certain knowledge (All cats are mammals.) Anyone’s perception is generally based off their judgement of their knowledge.

    Ultimately, it is all related to the importance of knowledge in humanity. Knowledge is what predominately controls us, and is necessary to exist in this reality.

    I do not think it is humanly possible to be 100% honest with knowledge. It is only possible to do your best in communicating what you believe to be real according to your knowledge, with wisdom. People often rely on their assumptions to make a false judgement unconsciously. Sometimes there is more truth in not knowing. People are afraid of what they do NOT know, sacrificing their innocence/honesty.
    :)

    • Mary says:

      I am going to kindly ask you to please stop responding with your very confusing, very contradicting theories. Knowledge is power, it empowers you if you have a sound moral compass and know how to filter the good from the bad. The laws of morality don’t change. They are solid and they are constant. What changes is people’s level of clarity due to unhealthy infuences that they either inflict on themselves or are forced to be subjected to unexpectedly. You said you didn’t want to force your beliefs unto people but you are now. I like to learn athough the only thing I learned from your last post is that sometimes people need other people to tell them to be quiet because they just don’t know when to stop, when enough is enough. So, please id indeed you do care about others and this truly isn’t about yourself, just stop. Thank you.

    • …it was a rhetorical ? ;-)

  37. dancergypsy says:

    Mary, I was responding to Sarah’s questions. She asked me: Your message was what exactly? I did not force anyone to do anything. I simply replied. You chose to read my comment. I am sad that is how you see it to be. Are you not sharing what you believe to be true? I think that is your right and I do not believe you are forcing me to believe anything even though you just shared it. I choose to believe what I want, as does anyone. I fully understand what I have been sharing has not been understood. It isn’t easy to understand, but if you ever did understand it, it would make sense. It is not saying, knowledge is not power. Of course, knowledge is powerful!

    In fact, it’s a great example for telling how powerful a thought, idea, and belief can be. After all, knowledge is our reality. We can believe anything! Maybe the word “lie” frightens you. Do not believe me. Do not believe any thing, but what YOU choose to believe!!

    For the sake of my dignity I will not provide my beliefs here any longer, as it seems a waste of my time! Maybe you think it has been all about me. Well, to be 100% honest, I don’t feel bad, because someone important told me, “what you believe is the most important thing you or anyone else could share anywhere.” Maybe you do not wish to learn what I share and are closed-minded, because if you did, you would try to see my points more clearly before you made the claims as you have. It seems you are too blinded with your own beliefs to see anything beyond them.

    “We don’t see things as they are, we see them as we are.”
    — Anaïs Nin

    • Mary says:

      Re-read yourself and count how many times you assumed something that is untrue about me in your last reply, especially after you’ve read my heart. In your responses to me, you seemed to only touch upon the things that make your thoughts and beliefs more superior but in reality, the simpler the truth, the easier it is to comprehend even if there is an abyss of mystery to it. That is the soul.

      I enjoy communication. I enjoy writing. But I do not appreciate the type of freedom of expression that entails tearing down a tower of faith that is the raison d’etre of a huge chunk of the world’s population for centuries. The theory of evolution does not only apply sceintifically to the physical realm, it also very much applies to the Spiritual. I never meant to insult your dignity but may ask you if it would be fair to assume the same about you?

      Re-read yourself and then apply Anais’ quote effectively.

      On this note, let us go back to being little girls together, sitting in a field of beautiful buttercups and a bird by the name William Makepeace Thackeray flies by with a flag attached ton olive branch that silently sings this, “Mother” is the name for God in the lips and hearts of little children.”

      I love you DangerGypsy. Truly, I do. I hope you have a great day. :)

  38. dancergypsy says:

    >>Re-read yourself and count how many times you assumed something that is untrue about me in your last reply.

    “Assumption” defined as: a thing that is accepted as true or certain without proof.

    1. Maybe the word “lie” frightens you.
    2. Maybe you think it has been all about me (>>So, please id indeed you do care about others and this truly isn’t about yourself, just stop.)
    3. Maybe you do not wish to learn what I share and are closed-minded, because if you did, you would try to see my points more clearly before you made the claims as you have.

    “Maybe” defined as: an uncertainty, to not know

    >>I like to learn athough the only thing I learned from your last post is that sometimes people need other people to tell them to be quiet because they just don’t know when to stop, when enough is enough.

    4. It seems you are too blinded with your own beliefs to see anything beyond them.

    I re-read myself for how many times I assumed something about you. I found ZERO times.

    • Mary says:

      wow, here we go again. I wish I didn’t come back to read this. :(

      I give up.

    • Mary says:

      I am raising my arms up in the air and surrendering to that which I have always believed in and offering appreciation to the immense power and beauty of language, especially when it is indeed used correctly.

      “Maybe” is synonymous to “perhaps” and when it is in conjunction to a thought that in detail, hypothetically describes one’s character, it’s an assumption.

      “Zero” means “none” and you have clearly numbered four bullets of “maybes” directed to me.

      And so as they say where I come from, “au suivant!”

    • Mary says:

      It’s important that you know that I am and I have been trying really hard to make sense of your perspective and I can’t help but feel really confused and sometimes discouraged when I do, that’s the honest truth. All I was trying to do by requesting some silence is trying to prevent this kind of confusion from spreading and I kind of took it upon myself to, I don’t know, “protect” the minds of others.

      In retrospect, I could have offered you this advice but at the time it didn’t dawn on me and if it did, I could have taken my own advice as well. I am simply asking you to first let your “knowledge” simmer for awhile, apply it to yourself first before you offer it up for food for thought to others who perhaps may be still delicately trying to “find themselves.”

      When people stop and ask me for directions, I will most definitely try my best to guide them to their destination right. If I don’t know how to get there, I will either admit I don’t know how to get there or if I have the proper tools, like a GPS or a map, I will help them to the best of my knowledge and abilities with the resources I am given.

      I questioned myself sincerely in order to rule out if I was not putting enough effort into your thoughts, but I did. I read them and re-read them and where some made some realistic sense, I shared that appreciation with you. I love to learn but when I don’t learn and end up feeling confused, I feel as though I could been doing something better with my eyes, my time and my efforts in which case I still try to give it the benefit of the doubt and then try to express a flip-side to what I gathered from that knowledge “exercise.”

      The below quoted comments seem like untruths to me and it felt immoral or wrong on my part to let other readers absorb it, hence my response and reaction yesterday.

      >You wrote: “All Knowledge are Lies. No Truth are Lies. No Truth are Knowledge.”

      >“What is truth is real. What is not truth is not real. It is an illusion, but it looks real.”

      Honestly, does this truly make sense to you?

      The most amazing of all the things you said, was this: “Love is real. It is the supreme expression of life.” And today, I really tried to express this to you wholeheartedly and to my sadness, it was not reciprocated nor acknowledged. But instead, you chose to fight back with what I believe to be untruths and which basically negated the real truth you stated about love.

      I really just hope we have all learned and appreciated something good from one another here. That essentially is the truth and the purpose of knowledge I think. To make the very best of it, to right it when it’s wrong and to share it with others in hopes of enriching them postitively. At least, that’s what I hope to do and also expect from the things I invest myself in reading, and the people I choose to befriend.

      Peace. :)

  39. JD_78 says:

    Hello,

    I will be the first to admit this is not my place and my intention is not to offend nor step on anyone’s toes, but I feel it needs to be addressed. After reading the replies (yes, my choice) over the last week or so it has become abundantly clear this “Battle for the Truth” is becoming absurd. I’m not attacking anyone’s thoughts, beliefs, or interpretations; I think everyone involved is intelligent, well-written and spoken, and has shared valid and interesting points. With that said, I think the polite thing to do at this point would be to move the discussion somewhere else and stop bombarding a blog that does not belong to you. Sharing thoughts and opinions is a wonderful freedom, but turning this into a makeshift, virtual battlefield is something entirely different. As an outsider looking in, each response is becoming more and more self-defeating. I don’t think that’s what anyone is trying to accomplish, if ‘accomplish’ is even the correct word.

    I will make this perfectly clear: I am not trying to pick an argument. I am not uncomfortable with anything that has been said. I will not be baited to respond and it is not for fear of a debate. It is out of courtesy and respect for this blog and the person who maintains it. I simply ask that you consider doing the same.

    • Mary says:

      This blog is about “finding ourselves” this is why the platfrom was created and with respect to the blog’s mission and purpose, that’s exactly what is transpiring and being born here. Thanks for coming into the light, too. :)

  40. dancergypsy says:

    Mary dear, I’m a going to do my very best to express to you my heart and mind. I will take the chance.

    I do not know what you want to know from me now, when you tell me all you have learned nothing but to tell me to stop if I care about others.

    I am not here to “protect” or “destroy” anyone’s mind, only to share. An adult’s mind is their own responsibility, no one else’s.

    It may be helpful for you to understand a few things about me, before we go any further. When discussing issues, I have been trained to remove my emotions from clouding the issue. My emotions or feelings have little involvement with the issue being discussed (aside from recent frustration that I am not making any sense to you). I understand that you could take everything I say personal. I have tried to look at the issues & address them casually. I am not very good at this online. Normally when I discuss issues it is usually face to face while using particular guidelines. There are no guidelines here. We never laid a clear foundation of understanding or direction. That is why so much has become confusing.

    My last post was very literal. I showed no emotion because I was trying to clear an issue. You have my word of honor, I never made an assumption about you in my mind, though it appears so to you from what I wrote. Maybe I should have put a question mark at the end of each sentence to make that clear. Here, it is hard basing my judgments off mere posted comments with typos, no voice infliction, and little to gauge the meaning of words. So far, I answered Sarah’s rhetorical questions which appeared to me to be a real question. It comes down to the fact that we are talking about apples and oranges. I realized that I was not being understood and blamed myself for lacking conciseness and clarity but continued to try different approaches. I am a much better communicator in real life, though you may hardly believe it.

    Now I will try to make other things clear:

    >> I am simply asking you to first let your “knowledge” simmer for awhile, others who perhaps may be still delicately trying to “find themselves.”

    I do not need to let my mind rest. If I did I would do so without you telling me to, on my own time.

    >>apply it to yourself first before you offer it up for food for thought.

    I have lived with this idea for two years and it works well for me. Only now am I attempting to discuss it publicly in order to learn to effectively communicate it and find outside perspectives- which I cannot gain if no one understands me.

    >>The below quoted comments seem like untruths to me and it felt immoral or wrong on my part to let other readers absorb it, hence my response and reaction yesterday.

    This is the “problem”, in my opinion, you are using your feelings over your reason. You felt it was immoral or wrong, which distracts you from looking clearly at the issue detached from you. You are making it personal and your responsibility to shield other people, when it has nothing to do with corruption or harm. Try looking at it as hypothetically or in theory.

    >>Honestly, does this truly make sense to you?
    Yes. 100%. The structure of the first three sentences are standard form syllogistic arguments. They are logically valid.

    >> And today, I really tried to express this to you wholeheartedly and to my sadness, it was not reciprocated nor acknowledged

    I’m not emotionally involved right now. You do not need my love, Mary. Remember, just because you can’t see it doesn’t mean it isn’t there.

    >>I really just hope we have all learned and appreciated something good from one another here.
    I certainly have.

    If you have any questions, ask. Otherwise, I will not volunteer my beliefs.

  41. dancergypsy says:

    My mother just wrote to me and said this. I asked for her advice and I believe it to be very helpful for both of us since it is an outside opinion:

    “I did read your comments. I DO understand what you said but probably not to the level you do. I wouldn’t have a clue if I didn’t have exposure to listening to so many rounds of value debate, which is very complex and confusing to intelligent minds.”

    My mother knows me and she knows my background in value debates, and she hardly understands which means I need to find a way to make it ultra simple so that I could explain it to a six year old if I had to. :)

  42. Mary says:

    Any theory of thought which desensitizes people, advises them to not protect others or empathize with others is not a theory that is valuable nor advisable to share publically. But perhaps this is why we’ve crossed paths so we can learn and help things along in the right direction, right?

    It is everyone’s responsibility to care, to take responsibility for the effect they have on others. It is hugely irresponsible to treat the minds of others as though they were rats in a laboratory being injected with experimental toxins.

    You say that this theory or approach has worked for you but if it isn’t being understood and you cannot genuinely speak from the heart, you aren’t speaking from personal experience. It will never be relayed truthfully because maybe it isn’t truth. You said you have yet to find someone to be in a relationship with and start a family with because you have not found anyone who believes in what you believe in. Isn’t that a sign, an answer? Instead of remaining in a cul-de-sac of a failing belief and relay system which is alienating you from the things you need and want, maybe you do need to be more rooted emotionally before you can say your theory is effective and the “truth”. Maybe you do need to be more open minded and hearted and do consider taking the advice of others who genuinely care.

    This training you’ve received “to remove yourself emotionally” is for what sort of practice exactly? It’s stark to even think about life in that way, especially if you need to explain something of ultimate importance like the truth to a six year old.

  43. dancergypsy says:

    I have questions for you, Mary

    How am I desensitizing people exactly? You have no evidence of my life nor the people I have encountered.

    >>You say that this theory or approach has worked for you but if it isn’t being understood and you cannot genuinely speak from the heart, you aren’t speaking from personal experience.

    I haven’t shared it with anyone besides family to see if others understand it, but Don Miguel Ruiz, the author of this theory explains it much better. I admire him greatly. He wrote The Mastery of Love, The Four Agreements, and The Voice of Knowledge, which surprisingly you might actually enjoy. My sister did. And how can you know I’m not speaking from personal experience? You have no evidence to from my life to say anything of my true experience.

    >>You said you have yet to find someone to be in a relationship with and start a family with because you have not found anyone who believes in what you believe in. Isn’t that a sign, an answer?

    First of all this has become all about me. I’ll reveal the “truth” honestly. I married myself in January, because I value myself, and I made a vow to live by important values to manifest my dreams. I’m not sitting around waiting for Prince Charming, and I am certain I could live without a man.

    It’s not hardly me that is the problem, when I live in a university town surrounded by people who drink themselves to oblivion three nights out of the week, and do recreational drugs, and can’t think past the next moment they are going to get laid. I don’t believe I am the one with moral problems, especially considering I live a wholesome life, do yoga almost daily, practice meditation, knit, dance, paint, go on lovely hikes in the wilderness, and so many beautiful things I cannot list. What are you getting at exactly? That I have no morals? That I do not care or value people? I know how it feels to be homeless, and hungry. Do you know one of my favorite things to do is ride the bus and visit with the mentally ill, and hear their stories? No, Mary, you know nothing about me. And if you wish to say my beliefs are the reason for the world’s problems, then that is a shallow argument. If you want to make this an argument about me, you will lose. You want an emotional argument, to see me weep or something? I do not work that way.

    >>This training you’ve received “to remove yourself emotionally” is for what sort of practice exactly?

    Forensics, also known as debate, where people use their minds to logically agree or disagree.

    And for the record, all knowledge of great value, philosophy, science, or anything that has stood the test of time has been debated for centuries. I doubt philosophers were weeping, screaming, laughing, or attacking each other, in the process. They were reasoning men and women. They probably did base their arguments off attacking someone’s morals especially when they had no evidence.

    Anyway, you are not accomplishing anything with me. I am not going to try and reason with someone who doesn’t understand the point of reason and only sees it as injecting toxins into people’s minds like their rats. I guess you believe I see you as a rat. Such a pity, I wasted my time. I imagined you were smarter than that.

    I am going to find someone who knows how to reason well, where my beliefs can be discussed reasonably and my knowledge can grow.

  44. dancergypsy says:

    *They probably did NOT base their arguments off attacking someone’s morals especially when they had no evidence.

  45. Mary says:

    I have read his some of his works and I wasn’t really moved nor impressed by his thoughts, perhaps that is why we don’t click. I am really happy to hear that you engage in healthy activities and are not like your “immoral” peers. I was the same way when I was in school and throughout my entire life thus far. Wow, the things we actually have in common; finally. But who cares right? Do you?

    let me tell you a story. Once, I witnessed a woman wandering down the street in a gloom so deep that was so sad. She only spoke Spanish and no one around at the time could understand her. As I drove by, I saw her falling over, her breast exposed, her red dress ripped, she was crying, screaming in agony. She wasn’t a homeless person, she was a mother, a woman, a heart-broken soul. I stopped my car and tried to ask her questions in my Spanglish. She said that her husband, her love left her and she wanted to die. An onlooker called the cops and they came to her “rescue.” Before they arrived, she stayed in my arms, I hugged her as she weeped and we prayed together, it made her feel better. When the ambulance arrived, they didn’t allow me near her. They began to laugh at her and they told me, “you know how often this happens, just go home.” She was begging me to stay with her, to keep praying with her and all they could do was tell me to mind my business and they giggled on as they strapped her in the gernie. They went on talking about their own stuff, completely emotionally disconnected, and she was dying….

    Forensics, law, valuable debate….what are those truly if you don’t feel a thing for the subjects in question?

    I am a very reasonable person and I am knowledgeable in many subjects and even geniuses like Einstein and Bohr and philosophers of ancient times laughed without ridicule and cried in empathy and fought over theories but in pure passion for their “callings” and they are some of the most successful founding fathers and theorists of intelligent doctrines and of relativity which entails EVERYTHING under and over the sea and sky. If you base your entire life’s purpose and theory of existence on mainly one sole author, Ruiz, then how can you possibly be open-minded to any more valuable knowledge the world has to offer?

  46. Mary says:

    I think “logic” to me, means something very different to you.

  47. They who know the truth are not equal to those that love it, and they who love it are not equal to those who delight in it. Confucius

  48. Mary says:

    Good morning :)

    I hope this message finds you well. I hope the smoke has cleared.

    Yesterday, I was simply trying to point out that too often today, such as in schools and online where there are millions of people following the lead of bad “leaders” there is a disconnectedness and a desensitization being taught and when you said you are trained to “remove yourself personally,” yes, I thought of scenarios where that sort of way today is detrimental. You didn’t provide anything personal about yourself and that I think is where we lost one another. You were just pointing out pieces of theoretical thought in a way separate from your own experiences and that’s where it was misunderstood and lost in translation. Please don’t attack me for not being trained the way you are. I am wired in a very different way than you are, maybe. When I see someone dying, I feel like I am dying. When I see a child being bullied, I feel like I am being bullied…You feeling like you are being “attacked” feels like I am being attacked. I cannot help but FEEL.

    The fact that Don Miguel Ruiz was dragged into this argument and his words were taken out of context and applied to completely separate theories from his own mission (which is to help, I’m sure) is unfair to him and his life’s work. maybe I was close minded in my opinion about his books because I read his book a long time ago, before I became a mother, before I really feel in love, before I saw the world and understood myself as I do now. Before, when all i thought of was my own self. But, the good thing about this dialogue we’ve shared is that this may be another opportunity for me to re-read hiim at in this stage of my life, in a newer, fresher light.

    I have learned a lot here. I believe that all happens for a reason and please believe me that my intention is never to hurt anyone’s feelings. I think we were both hypothetically talking but because we do care, it was personal. :) I feel as though I want to protect people, especially young children from any sort of bad. Now that you have shared about yourself, your personal life, we do seem to finally meet on a common ground, because you do now seem to come across as a real person with feelings. And if it is any consolation, I too married myself, actually I married God. This was the best decision I ever made because it does keep me grounded. But to say that I don’t need a man or that I never want to be one again, or really be married to another person, is to lie to myself. I would love to be with the man I love and grow my family. I believe in the good in everyone, men and women alike and I do believe that I deserve the best too.

    So the first thing I read this morning was this quote, which put a lot into perspective, in a good light after this trip we have taken together. :)

    “Be Impeccable With Your Word. Speak with integrity. Say only what you mean. Avoid using the word to speak against yourself or to gossip about others. Use the power of your word in the direction of truth and love.” ~Don Miguel Ruiz

    I’m really, really glad we met and like I said yesterday morning, I do love you and I do thank you for your teachings. :)

    • Mary says:

      …”to say I don’t need a man, or want to be *with* one again…” haha…I did grow up a tom-boy, but that line had to be corrected. ;)

      xo

    • dancergypsy says:

      Mary dear, you never hurt my feelings. Don’t worry about it. I have thick skin. Be who you are, and don’t let anyone else determine that for you. Honestly, I understand you completely and I understand that I am not understood completely, by many. There has not been any harm done on my end. It has taught me much, too.

      This place has taught me just how unmasked I actually am and how comfortable I am as me, but I am not sure how to make other people comfortable with me, despite the fact I sincerely wish for everyone to be 100% true to who they are, knowing it may be entirely different from me. I greatly admire people who live as what they were created to be. More importantly, this has taught me how horribly people judge others incorrectly, how quickly we can assume things, and how much courage it really takes to be honest with grace and integrity in life. Learning to say what needs to be said, only. I’m not sure there is much need for anything to be said so often. There is special skill in that. As well, honoring others in the process. People don’t take the time to consider all the possibilities others may be enduring before they draw a conclusion- resulting in taking things personal.

      It’s a challenge to be real, in real life. The challenge not here. It’s a piece of cake here, because everyone has the safety of their computer to hide behind. The true story is seen written on the pages of life and on the tablets of our minds. It would be quite silly to judge someone’s character entirely based upon an Internet experience. It would be silly to judge anyone anywhere, without grace.

      You have a good heart. I never thought otherwise. I’m glad we met too.

      I probably won’t be around anymore, simply because I’m working on myself, which is a full-time job. :)

      From my heart & mind,
      dancergypsy

  49. Truth

    By Alexander

    The truth is that I never shook my shadow
    Every day it’s trying to trick me into doing battle
    Calling out “faker” only get me rattled
    Want to pull me back behind the fence with the cattle
    Building your lenses
    Digging your trenches
    Put me on the front line
    Leave me with a dumb mind
    With no defenses
    But your defenses
    If you can’t stand to feel the pain then you are senseless

    Since this
    I’ve grown up some
    Different kind of fighter
    And when the darkness come let it inside you
    Your darkness is shining
    My darkness is shining
    Have faith in myself
    Truth

    I’ve seen a million numbered doors on the horizon
    Now which is the future you choosen before you gone dying.
    I’ll tell you ’bout a secret I’ve been underminding
    Every little lie in this world come from dividing
    Say you’re my lover, say you’re my homie,
    Tilt my chin back slit my throat take a bath in my blood get to know me
    All out of my secrets
    All my enemies are turning into my teachers.
    Because, lights blinding, no way dividing what’s yours or mine when everything’s shining
    You darkness is shining my darkness is shining
    Have faith in ourselves
    Truth
    Yes I’m only loving, only trying to only love
    That’s what I’m trying to do is only loving
    Yes I’m only lonely loving feeling only loving
    Till I’m feeling only loving
    Ya say it ain’t loving ain’t loving my loving
    But I’m only loving only loving only loving
    Only loving the truth.

    • dancergypsy says:

      “The brave speak the truth.
      Let others like it or not;
      For the talk of false friendship we care not.”

      -Sachal Sarmast

  50. dancergypsy says:

    Hey Mary!

    I was curious, is there a way to remain in touch with you without being on here? I have a tumblr: dancergypsy.tumblr.com. If not, that’s alright.

    You came to my mind when I read the following piece. I wanted to share it with you, since it is so beautiful. I may as well share it with everyone here. It’s from one of my favorite books, Tao Te Ching. I hope one day to express myself as clearly as this. It makes so much sense to me.

    I hope you are treating life well. I wanted to let you know you come to my mind from time to time, in a positive way.

    “When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad.
    Being and non-being create each other.
    Difficult and easy support each other.
    Long and short define each other.
    High and low depend on each other.
    Before and after follow each other.

    Therefore the Master
    acts without doing anything
    and teaches without saying anything.
    Things arise and she lets them go.
    She has but doesn’t possess,
    acts but doesn’t expect.
    When her work is done, she forgets it.
    That is why it lasts forever.”
    — Lao Tzu

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